The end of the game was a mess. What concerns me is that there was no improvement after half time, never mind following the substitutions.
Quiet first halves were more common under Klopp than collective memory probably recalls. In eight home league games last season, Liverpool had no more than one big chance in the first half, which is what they had on Saturday.
But they then averaged 14.5 shots, 4.5 on target and 2.3 big chances in the second halves of those games in 2023/24. Those respective figures against Forest? Eight, three and zero. The occasions they didn't beat those numbers from Saturday? One, two and zero.
There should've been more of a response after the break and it wasn't there.
Thanks for the stats ... and they are glaring. It's hard to know how much of the lazy performance was due to the international break. I was surprised that Arne started Luis & Macca given the South Americans have played A LOT + the usual travel issue + a home match against a side that you'd expect to be pragmatic. We probably would have been fresher with Cody & Curtis starting and Luis & Macca as 2nd half substitutes.
Yeah, maybe. Slot has backed himself into a corner with selection whereby players who have barely played came on and then had to rescue the situation after Forest scored.
This was so wonderful Josh! I have avoided social media since satruday evening mainly because of our fans (its easier to ignore fans of other clubs). It is nice to think about the game discriptively without jumping into hasty coclusions-- well you take this principled approach better than most of us. I look forward to this week's podcast (It will be a therapy session for me, i am sure it the case most of us who follow your closely).
This was on the players than slot . We bypassed their midfield with ease . We got our best player , even Diaz one on one with their full backs numerous times . However the final third was abysmal. You can't blame Slot for Salah and his dire attempt at passing. Sozbo was terrible and imo he cannot be allowed to play against a low block . The only thing you can blame Slot for is the lack of game time is squad are getting . That needs to improve and he cannot pick the same team every week , even when it's one game a week.
Watching the game one factor became obvious and that was Liverpool lacked width. Forest packed the middle of the field. They effectively played a pentagon in the centre, the area that slot likes to play through. They then had the bank of four in defence behind that. It meant Liverpool were suffocated in that area.
The first changes compounded that problem. The real problem was taking off MacAllister and putting Trent in there. Trent is not a player that can best the press and the suffocation. Trent is not a player that plays on the half turn, he cannot beat his man from a tight situation. He is a player that needs to be facing goal and space to hit his passes, I.e the right back position is perfect. In midfield he is surrounded and does not have the time. Lindjers invented the box midfield which let Liverpool have an extra body over the opposition which was Trent and allowed him that time and space. Teams like Forest have adapted and effectively have 5 players in their now reducing the time that 3 or 4 midfielders have.
Trent is not a number 6 or a number 8. It was noticeable that Gravenberch became much less effective when he had to move to the left of the double pivot, Trent played the right. It meant Gravenberch could not pass round the corner and break the lines. Being right footed he was having to pass into the congestion from the left side. This made both Gakpo and Salah less effective.
I would have swapped Mac allister for Endo and then either kept Trent on or swapped him for Bradley. Endo may not be the best number 6 in the world and many of the criticisms that I said about Trent in the six role are the same for Endo. But Rndo would have brought a bit more bite into the middle. He can play the 6 role on his own. Does not need the double pivot Trent, MacAllister and Gravenberch need. Instead of needing to be forward looking like Trent, Endo could fall back into a bank of three defenders with Konate and Van Dijk. That 6 would have offered more protection to the centre halves allowing the fullbacks to provide more overlapping width to try and alleviate the suffocation in the centre. It would also have allowed Gravenberch to have a bit more freedom. More a Klopp watt of playing.
In that regard the wide and more attacking fullbacks would have pulled both Elanga and Hudson-Odoi further back and may have provided better crossing opportunities for Nuñez. While also freeing up Salah and Gakpo.
Thanks Josh. My concern is that even the mighty Jurgen was susceptible to not being able to overcome a low block. Slot struggled with it at Feyenoord. It’s like these managers can’t quite get the balance right between counter press and possession in these situations. Forest’s game plan was obvious for weeks….
I was also really worried about the team - what does it say to Darwin, Jomez, Curtis that they’re training with Slot for 2 weeks whilst their colleagues are flying round the world being run ragged by international managers and THEY STILL CANT start for the team at home to Forest?
And we became worse with the subs. And the shape was a mess. Trent in Midfield was for me the wrong call.
It was just awful! Ha! Ah well, it happens I guess. Good for the fans too. I was certainly getting a bit ahead of myself after 3 wins!
Anyway hopefully a managerial blip as well as a player blip. A nice win tomorrow and Saturday and we can calm down a bit…..!!
Great piece, and I think it was Forest setup and our inability to handle it that resulted in so many players being off on the ball. They were clearly frustrated and didn’t look prepared for a low block, also Slot showed no signs of knowing how to change things to break it down, as evident by the complete lack of improvement in the second half.
Before Slot arrived a was wondering if the low block would turn out to be his cryptonite because it’s not something you face in the Eredivisie, so his style just isn’t tailored to that sort of setup. Like you wrote he has to come up with a way to make our build up work when you can’t bait the opposition into the press, and in the Forest game he and the players failed completely.
Just a curious observation I made from Slot’s time at Feyenoord is that he faced Mourinhos Roma (similar style to Nuno) in the Europa League final and lost 1-0 and the possession for Feyenoord in that game was close to 70% (they met last season again and the possession was closer (54/46) and it finished 1-1 in normal time). Slot needs time to figure out the low block and it’s to early to draw big conclusions, but more teams will come to Anfield and frustrate us the Forest way if he doesn’t find ways around this on the ball.
I was hoping that Arne's tactics would result in (1) conceding fewer high-quality chances and (2) an attack based on the collective vs. the brilliance of individuals. It's only 4 matches so still a very small sample size mostly against 4th quartile opponents. Too early for a clear judgment.
The first "hope" has looked on track (w/ good stats) as the defensive structure + a bit more determination in tracking = conceding fewer good chances. Again, the opponents are below par so take it with a pinch of salt but a good start. On the 2nd, however, it's not great. Most of our 7 goals were triggered via ball recovery from the press, great transition play & OK finishing.
Forest were the first opponent that, as Josh points out, set up to kick long, sit behind the ball & play for an away draw with the hope that they could steal a win. Last season, we often struggled in these types of matches, resulting in a lot of individual actions/decisions in attack that carry a low probability of success, e.g. attempted dribbles through 2-3 opponents, forced passes or hopeful crosses.
I was hoping to see all XI commit to quick passes & lots of movement/interchange in a collective pattern ... repeated patiently until a chance was created. Instead, the ball moved slowly, there was too little movement, the touches were errant and, when we lost the ball, we seemed to lose the resulting duel to regain it. The worst part is how disorganized & chaotic it seemed. It's still early (no panic) but we've not yet seen a collective plan in attack, besides in transition.
100% of our XI played at least 1, if not 2 full matches on international duty. Did any of Forest's? Our players looked tired. They had 2 weeks to prepare. This was my biggest fear. Bad loss No reason to panic.
It felt like our positivity bubble was burst and the strange thing watching the game there was a sense of inevitability about it, we even say fans leaving.
Playing a fresh team didn't help - we would have been better off against one of the big teams who also had lots of international duty
Roll on Milan and ....thanks Josh for the great analysis
Every player should be equally looked at. Why was Mo not subbed in that game? Contract fear? Slot is making the same mistakes as Jurgen did in relation with subs.
Leaving on Salah wasn’t crazy, with Chiesa and Elliot being out of the squad his two most likely replacements were unavailable. Combined with him being a player who even on a bad day can pop up with a goal or assist I can see leaving him on.
The one change I think that didn’t work was Bradley from MacAllister - and I have the feeling Slot wouldn’t make that move again without some other tweak.
The end of the game was a mess. What concerns me is that there was no improvement after half time, never mind following the substitutions.
Quiet first halves were more common under Klopp than collective memory probably recalls. In eight home league games last season, Liverpool had no more than one big chance in the first half, which is what they had on Saturday.
But they then averaged 14.5 shots, 4.5 on target and 2.3 big chances in the second halves of those games in 2023/24. Those respective figures against Forest? Eight, three and zero. The occasions they didn't beat those numbers from Saturday? One, two and zero.
There should've been more of a response after the break and it wasn't there.
Thanks for the stats ... and they are glaring. It's hard to know how much of the lazy performance was due to the international break. I was surprised that Arne started Luis & Macca given the South Americans have played A LOT + the usual travel issue + a home match against a side that you'd expect to be pragmatic. We probably would have been fresher with Cody & Curtis starting and Luis & Macca as 2nd half substitutes.
Yeah, maybe. Slot has backed himself into a corner with selection whereby players who have barely played came on and then had to rescue the situation after Forest scored.
This was so wonderful Josh! I have avoided social media since satruday evening mainly because of our fans (its easier to ignore fans of other clubs). It is nice to think about the game discriptively without jumping into hasty coclusions-- well you take this principled approach better than most of us. I look forward to this week's podcast (It will be a therapy session for me, i am sure it the case most of us who follow your closely).
Well said!
I would add that our offensive corners are certainly an area of improvement, 0 goals out of 31 attempts in the last 4 games.
This was on the players than slot . We bypassed their midfield with ease . We got our best player , even Diaz one on one with their full backs numerous times . However the final third was abysmal. You can't blame Slot for Salah and his dire attempt at passing. Sozbo was terrible and imo he cannot be allowed to play against a low block . The only thing you can blame Slot for is the lack of game time is squad are getting . That needs to improve and he cannot pick the same team every week , even when it's one game a week.
Watching the game one factor became obvious and that was Liverpool lacked width. Forest packed the middle of the field. They effectively played a pentagon in the centre, the area that slot likes to play through. They then had the bank of four in defence behind that. It meant Liverpool were suffocated in that area.
The first changes compounded that problem. The real problem was taking off MacAllister and putting Trent in there. Trent is not a player that can best the press and the suffocation. Trent is not a player that plays on the half turn, he cannot beat his man from a tight situation. He is a player that needs to be facing goal and space to hit his passes, I.e the right back position is perfect. In midfield he is surrounded and does not have the time. Lindjers invented the box midfield which let Liverpool have an extra body over the opposition which was Trent and allowed him that time and space. Teams like Forest have adapted and effectively have 5 players in their now reducing the time that 3 or 4 midfielders have.
Trent is not a number 6 or a number 8. It was noticeable that Gravenberch became much less effective when he had to move to the left of the double pivot, Trent played the right. It meant Gravenberch could not pass round the corner and break the lines. Being right footed he was having to pass into the congestion from the left side. This made both Gakpo and Salah less effective.
I would have swapped Mac allister for Endo and then either kept Trent on or swapped him for Bradley. Endo may not be the best number 6 in the world and many of the criticisms that I said about Trent in the six role are the same for Endo. But Rndo would have brought a bit more bite into the middle. He can play the 6 role on his own. Does not need the double pivot Trent, MacAllister and Gravenberch need. Instead of needing to be forward looking like Trent, Endo could fall back into a bank of three defenders with Konate and Van Dijk. That 6 would have offered more protection to the centre halves allowing the fullbacks to provide more overlapping width to try and alleviate the suffocation in the centre. It would also have allowed Gravenberch to have a bit more freedom. More a Klopp watt of playing.
In that regard the wide and more attacking fullbacks would have pulled both Elanga and Hudson-Odoi further back and may have provided better crossing opportunities for Nuñez. While also freeing up Salah and Gakpo.
Thanks Josh. My concern is that even the mighty Jurgen was susceptible to not being able to overcome a low block. Slot struggled with it at Feyenoord. It’s like these managers can’t quite get the balance right between counter press and possession in these situations. Forest’s game plan was obvious for weeks….
I was also really worried about the team - what does it say to Darwin, Jomez, Curtis that they’re training with Slot for 2 weeks whilst their colleagues are flying round the world being run ragged by international managers and THEY STILL CANT start for the team at home to Forest?
And we became worse with the subs. And the shape was a mess. Trent in Midfield was for me the wrong call.
It was just awful! Ha! Ah well, it happens I guess. Good for the fans too. I was certainly getting a bit ahead of myself after 3 wins!
Anyway hopefully a managerial blip as well as a player blip. A nice win tomorrow and Saturday and we can calm down a bit…..!!
Great piece, and I think it was Forest setup and our inability to handle it that resulted in so many players being off on the ball. They were clearly frustrated and didn’t look prepared for a low block, also Slot showed no signs of knowing how to change things to break it down, as evident by the complete lack of improvement in the second half.
Before Slot arrived a was wondering if the low block would turn out to be his cryptonite because it’s not something you face in the Eredivisie, so his style just isn’t tailored to that sort of setup. Like you wrote he has to come up with a way to make our build up work when you can’t bait the opposition into the press, and in the Forest game he and the players failed completely.
Just a curious observation I made from Slot’s time at Feyenoord is that he faced Mourinhos Roma (similar style to Nuno) in the Europa League final and lost 1-0 and the possession for Feyenoord in that game was close to 70% (they met last season again and the possession was closer (54/46) and it finished 1-1 in normal time). Slot needs time to figure out the low block and it’s to early to draw big conclusions, but more teams will come to Anfield and frustrate us the Forest way if he doesn’t find ways around this on the ball.
I was hoping that Arne's tactics would result in (1) conceding fewer high-quality chances and (2) an attack based on the collective vs. the brilliance of individuals. It's only 4 matches so still a very small sample size mostly against 4th quartile opponents. Too early for a clear judgment.
The first "hope" has looked on track (w/ good stats) as the defensive structure + a bit more determination in tracking = conceding fewer good chances. Again, the opponents are below par so take it with a pinch of salt but a good start. On the 2nd, however, it's not great. Most of our 7 goals were triggered via ball recovery from the press, great transition play & OK finishing.
Forest were the first opponent that, as Josh points out, set up to kick long, sit behind the ball & play for an away draw with the hope that they could steal a win. Last season, we often struggled in these types of matches, resulting in a lot of individual actions/decisions in attack that carry a low probability of success, e.g. attempted dribbles through 2-3 opponents, forced passes or hopeful crosses.
I was hoping to see all XI commit to quick passes & lots of movement/interchange in a collective pattern ... repeated patiently until a chance was created. Instead, the ball moved slowly, there was too little movement, the touches were errant and, when we lost the ball, we seemed to lose the resulting duel to regain it. The worst part is how disorganized & chaotic it seemed. It's still early (no panic) but we've not yet seen a collective plan in attack, besides in transition.
First bit of analysis of the game I’ve actually opened. Always deliver great info without all the emotions. Great work!
100% of our XI played at least 1, if not 2 full matches on international duty. Did any of Forest's? Our players looked tired. They had 2 weeks to prepare. This was my biggest fear. Bad loss No reason to panic.
It felt like our positivity bubble was burst and the strange thing watching the game there was a sense of inevitability about it, we even say fans leaving.
Playing a fresh team didn't help - we would have been better off against one of the big teams who also had lots of international duty
Roll on Milan and ....thanks Josh for the great analysis
Every player should be equally looked at. Why was Mo not subbed in that game? Contract fear? Slot is making the same mistakes as Jurgen did in relation with subs.
Leaving on Salah wasn’t crazy, with Chiesa and Elliot being out of the squad his two most likely replacements were unavailable. Combined with him being a player who even on a bad day can pop up with a goal or assist I can see leaving him on.
The one change I think that didn’t work was Bradley from MacAllister - and I have the feeling Slot wouldn’t make that move again without some other tweak.