Nothing to add re:the article (which was excellent) but pleasantly surprised to see a wonderful community of insightful comments emerging beneath. First time on Substack so didn’t expect it, but this is wonderful to see.
I wasn’t kidding when I said this would be home for data-driven supporters. We’re all mates here and this is a really exciting but challenging topic to debate. FWIW, I don’t know any of the results yet.
Great first article Josh, loved it mate!! I think we love getting behind and buying-in to a manager more than any other fan base - and that comes from Shankly's time I think, but you are right, they can only do so much. They can only create the atmosphere and conditions for success.
Harry Redknapp's book at the end, he tells the story of Liverpool's squad in 1984 finishing the season and going on the piss to Ayia Napa for a few days, before the European Cup Final, whereas Roma went to train at altitude in the mountains. The Liverpool team didn't train before the final, they couldn't, the place designated of them was a ploughed field, so they just had a walk and Joe Fagan didn't give a team talk before the match.
Liverpool over powered Roma on the night, and didn't make a game of it. Redknapp's point of the story is 'managing is easy when you have great players'
Thanks a lot Gavin. I was expecting a bit of backlash for not worshipping Klopp from start to finish, but it’s nice to see everyone being open-minded re managers and their worth. Great Redknapp quote too, Ancelotti came to mind reading it.
This is why systems managers can be outliers, and I think looking at the permanent of players after leaving the coach and system can be revealing…
There is such a massive distinct pattern of players being utterly worldclass when playing for klopp, and struggling (thus being seen as flops) when then signed by teams or managers who don’t give the same system or structure.
I think there’s a huge insight there….
It’s always about the quality of the players; but sometimes is not just the quality of the players
A rational opinion on this topic is very difficult to achieve because of outcome and recency bias and an inherent belief in strong leaders. I can see this in myself reading your article and thinking which other manager would be able to win that Carabao Cup final.
What I would add as consideration for the next manager discussion is the effect of belief and focus, which are factors that the manager can instill in players. The mindset of a player shapes the qualitative outcome. This is very apparent in individual sports as it affects outcome directly. In my youth I used to train in the same facility as a Shot Put Olympian and even though physical and technical training was constantly at a high level, the training results fluctuated daily, where the best results came almost unexpectedly. The main focus of the coach was to prepare the athlete mentally for the big competitions.
I recommend ‘The Myth of the Strong Leader’ by Archie Brown on the psychology behind our natural biases. Even though it is focused on political figures and the theories apply for all areas of life.
Excellent read Josh! Equally insightful comment section too- I think the intangible aspects of management and the belief that a symbolic figure head gives, really does helps push players to beyond their perceived boundaries and expectations. I think that’s what makes great managers great.
Since the announcement there is an obvious sadness with Klopp leaving, but this was always going to happen one day. We should be optimistic with the fact that he’s leaving at a time when our foundations are still solid that a new manager can come in and have the space to continue to build (hopefully).
I also think some of the major symbolic figures of English football have truly dominated the sport, thus impacting the narrative. Ferguson, Pep, etc. Nobody realises these guys are outliers. 90% of managers out there are quite blunt.
Love it.. it’s amazing the response that Ian grahams analysis on managers’ impacts gets… was it something like 6 points per season? Rory from NYT brought it up on 5live and was laughed at.. I’ve discussed it with people and they just refuse to accept it.
I tend to trust the physicist..
But it does show just how holistic an impact a top manager has to have, klopps emotional intelligence is key to his longevity, as is not arguing with the club hierarchy in public.. how do you quantify these elements?
Results bias is always the other thing.. just look at the two half’s vs Luton.. we could have scored very similar goals in the first 10 mins of the first half as we did in the second, the process created the chances, just the final touch different, the ball falling slightly different, and that changes the entire story..
Great piece, Josh. So glad to see you backing yourself and going out on your own. Let's hope we can help make it all successful for you as you deserve it, mate.
Sorry for being late to the article. The question I would love to ask Josh is, seeing that you say that managers have so little impact during play, which I completely agree with, is the return of a player manager a possibility? They would clearly need a really involved director of football to take the off field burden from them but is there any data to support that it may work. It’s been a longtime since Kenny was doing this but might it work with a VVD for example
In this narrative-driven world it’s (not?) strange that it’s so hard to both worship Klopp and still be reasonable in terms of what impact that actually can achieve, though it of course is 100% true that there is a limit to the impact. Great piece and looking forward to the rest of the series!
Nothing to add re:the article (which was excellent) but pleasantly surprised to see a wonderful community of insightful comments emerging beneath. First time on Substack so didn’t expect it, but this is wonderful to see.
I wasn’t kidding when I said this would be home for data-driven supporters. We’re all mates here and this is a really exciting but challenging topic to debate. FWIW, I don’t know any of the results yet.
Great first article Josh, loved it mate!! I think we love getting behind and buying-in to a manager more than any other fan base - and that comes from Shankly's time I think, but you are right, they can only do so much. They can only create the atmosphere and conditions for success.
Harry Redknapp's book at the end, he tells the story of Liverpool's squad in 1984 finishing the season and going on the piss to Ayia Napa for a few days, before the European Cup Final, whereas Roma went to train at altitude in the mountains. The Liverpool team didn't train before the final, they couldn't, the place designated of them was a ploughed field, so they just had a walk and Joe Fagan didn't give a team talk before the match.
Liverpool over powered Roma on the night, and didn't make a game of it. Redknapp's point of the story is 'managing is easy when you have great players'
Thanks a lot Gavin. I was expecting a bit of backlash for not worshipping Klopp from start to finish, but it’s nice to see everyone being open-minded re managers and their worth. Great Redknapp quote too, Ancelotti came to mind reading it.
This is why systems managers can be outliers, and I think looking at the permanent of players after leaving the coach and system can be revealing…
There is such a massive distinct pattern of players being utterly worldclass when playing for klopp, and struggling (thus being seen as flops) when then signed by teams or managers who don’t give the same system or structure.
I think there’s a huge insight there….
It’s always about the quality of the players; but sometimes is not just the quality of the players
Great introductions to a challenging topic.
A rational opinion on this topic is very difficult to achieve because of outcome and recency bias and an inherent belief in strong leaders. I can see this in myself reading your article and thinking which other manager would be able to win that Carabao Cup final.
What I would add as consideration for the next manager discussion is the effect of belief and focus, which are factors that the manager can instill in players. The mindset of a player shapes the qualitative outcome. This is very apparent in individual sports as it affects outcome directly. In my youth I used to train in the same facility as a Shot Put Olympian and even though physical and technical training was constantly at a high level, the training results fluctuated daily, where the best results came almost unexpectedly. The main focus of the coach was to prepare the athlete mentally for the big competitions.
I recommend ‘The Myth of the Strong Leader’ by Archie Brown on the psychology behind our natural biases. Even though it is focused on political figures and the theories apply for all areas of life.
Thanks Stulle, really interesting stuff. I’ll have a look at that book for sure.
Did anyone else scroll past the quotes first time before realising they weren’t Reach style ads 🤣
Ha, good riddance.
Excellent read Josh! Equally insightful comment section too- I think the intangible aspects of management and the belief that a symbolic figure head gives, really does helps push players to beyond their perceived boundaries and expectations. I think that’s what makes great managers great.
Since the announcement there is an obvious sadness with Klopp leaving, but this was always going to happen one day. We should be optimistic with the fact that he’s leaving at a time when our foundations are still solid that a new manager can come in and have the space to continue to build (hopefully).
I also think some of the major symbolic figures of English football have truly dominated the sport, thus impacting the narrative. Ferguson, Pep, etc. Nobody realises these guys are outliers. 90% of managers out there are quite blunt.
Love it.. it’s amazing the response that Ian grahams analysis on managers’ impacts gets… was it something like 6 points per season? Rory from NYT brought it up on 5live and was laughed at.. I’ve discussed it with people and they just refuse to accept it.
I tend to trust the physicist..
But it does show just how holistic an impact a top manager has to have, klopps emotional intelligence is key to his longevity, as is not arguing with the club hierarchy in public.. how do you quantify these elements?
Results bias is always the other thing.. just look at the two half’s vs Luton.. we could have scored very similar goals in the first 10 mins of the first half as we did in the second, the process created the chances, just the final touch different, the ball falling slightly different, and that changes the entire story..
Great piece, Josh. So glad to see you backing yourself and going out on your own. Let's hope we can help make it all successful for you as you deserve it, mate.
Sorry for being late to the article. The question I would love to ask Josh is, seeing that you say that managers have so little impact during play, which I completely agree with, is the return of a player manager a possibility? They would clearly need a really involved director of football to take the off field burden from them but is there any data to support that it may work. It’s been a longtime since Kenny was doing this but might it work with a VVD for example
Wet the whistle nicely, this is going to be a good series!
In this narrative-driven world it’s (not?) strange that it’s so hard to both worship Klopp and still be reasonable in terms of what impact that actually can achieve, though it of course is 100% true that there is a limit to the impact. Great piece and looking forward to the rest of the series!